(no subject)

[sciatrix]

 I just got out of a really interesting conversation about queerness and community and access to easy entry points of community, and one of the things one of the participants in that conversation said struck me. They said that when they're lonely and looking to make specifically queer friends, they feel like the only way they have to do that is to use Tindr to find people to potentially date, and then maybe see if friendship comes out of that. Or maybe otherwise to go out and be attractive and potentially available, and maybe make friends that way. 

I'm sort of personally horrified by the notion, in part because it's so inaccessible to me and in part because that's some heavy pressure to be available and attractive in exchange for affection and intimacy. And I'm newly really grateful for the people in my life and the set of circumstances that has let them be here for me, both personally and in the aggregate. 

This isn't intended to be a judgement on anyone who feels that way or anyone who that idea would work for or anything. It's just a system that would not work for me, and one I'm glad not to currently find myself in. 

Comments

[wellthisisnice]

I've also heard about this notion of queer friendship being often born out out dating/hook ups, because that's the main reason to meet other queer people in the first place. Except, it was talked about as a good/fun thing in the queer community, as Something We Have That The Straight Don't Because They're Boring.

And yet, it's one of the main causes of the epidemic of gay loneliness [cw for depression, substance abuse and suicide].

Like, it can the fun and it does sometimes lead to life-long frienships, but it absolutely cannot be the only way (along with political activism) to make queer friends and connect with others. You cannot rely on sex and politics for emotional intimacy, that's not healthy.

[sciatrix]

Yeah, it really bothers me! And I mean, I am saying this in the context of running a fairly large and numerous asexuality meetup that routinely spurs around ten to twenty people meeting every single week for coffee and chatter for the span of a few hours--that's where I met jezunya for example--and where I keep watching friendships that seem to last getting made. Like... let's see, offhand I can think of four households right now that are set up between people who met each other in this group? Counting mine--that's where I met my two roommates.

There's no booze, either, alcohol culture being the other traditional method of queer hookups, which can also be a problem for some people. And I mean... really, I just want there to be more community spaces, dammit, that don't expect you to Be anything except yourself. Intergenerational spaces, for example. I just--want people to be less lonely and to have more access to long-standing chosen family networks, and that necessitates a culture of people going out and interacting with one another so that those relationships can naturally form.

*stamps foot* no one should *have* to do anything to escape the bite of loneliness beyond tending to their own relationships and nurturing joy in others, you feel?

[wellthisisnice]

Yes yes yes, i totally feel you.

Like, a have a professor you loves talking about third places, accessible spaces not related to home nor work that allow relaxed, intergenerational community building. The only physical queer third places available really are bars, pubs and cruissing spots, and they're slowly disappearing due to gentrification (specially those not catering cis dudes). Sometimes queer bookstores and coffeshops allow for non-sexualized interaction, but those tend to be even fewer and far between.

We need more social queer meetups and more, like, LGBT+ community / cultural centers, places where you can go and stay for free and meet other queer folks.

[lovepeaceohana]

the only way they have to do that is to use Tindr to find people to potentially date, and then maybe see if friendship comes out of that.

That sounds ... deeply discomforting to me, personally, because I could not perform that kind of sexual availability/attentiveness for very long, and yeah, I'm glad I don't live in a local culture that necessitates that kind of connection process.

[lovepeaceohana]

Oh, a meetup like that sounds lovely! Most of the meetups around here that I've noticed tend to happen in bars - like, even the Mountain Queers affiliate group for outdoorsy queer folk who are Mountaineers members is having their first meet n' greet at ... a bar ... because apparently we couldn't just go hiking?!

no one should *have* to do anything to escape the bite of loneliness beyond tending to their own relationships and nurturing joy in others, you feel?

^^^ Yes.

[sciatrix]

Yeah, I didn't drink much at the time I set up that meetup and I still don't, and quite frankly, I hate bars! I can never hear anyone talk. So I figured the hell with it, I'd do something I actually liked instead. Which was tea (although I've since cut caffeine heavily because hello anxiety trigger, but they do fancy hot chocolates too). Besides, I wanted to be able to have something for folks who weren't twenty one yet. I think I'd only just turned twenty two myself when I started doing that thing.

Really, there are plenty of good queer third spaces of that kind that I've seen in various places! It's just that almost all of them are student centers, and I thought then (and still think) that there need to be access points for friendships for adults who are no longer in college, too. My campus doesn't have much of a queer faculty culture, so when I was thinking about what I wanted to make I felt pretty strongly that I wanted to be accessible to folks of all ages.

Ace communities can tend towards being unfortunately narrow in the age ranges they're thinking of--I am still indignantly sputtering over one age-specific initiative that called itself Aces Over Twenty--and I wanted something relatively comfortable for folks of a variety of ages. I'm proud of the range we have now, all the way from college students up to mid-thirties and a few folks who come in occasionally who are in their forties and fifties. I grew up being scared that adults didn't get to have meaningful friendships or relationships outside natal family and spouses, so it makes me really happy to see evidence that teenage me was wrong all around me.

Apparently we have a queer gym here in town, which I was delighted to learn about. Yes! More of that! Queerness isn't just about sex, dammit, and there ought to be space for us to find one another and interact in all our lives.

[sciatrix]

Weirdly I think that internet fandom has been that space for many of us? Or at least, it so often has been for me. And I mean, that's all well and good, but sometimes it's nice to have your social networks nearby, too.

[wellthisisnice]

It absolutely has, yeah. And like, some people has access to fan cons where they can meetup and discover fan/queer friends that actually live nearby, but the rest of us just have virtual third places.

[lazaefair]

You cannot rely on sex and politics for emotional intimacy, that's not healthy.

I was JUST complaining about this last night. Part of a conversation I was having about how queer people define and present themselves, and why I've never felt like I was part of any LGBTQ community and never made whole-hearted efforts to try. A lot of it is just that I'm not in the market for dating atm, so that avenue's out, and I find queer people who seem to have substituted "being queer" for having an actual personality to be boring. And that seems to be a lot of them.

(To be fair, I find a lot of people boring, and since there's a smaller percentage of queer people in the general population to begin with...yeah.)

[sciatrix]

*thoughtfully* I also do find that I'm not remotely unique among queer people in that the face I present to people is not necessarily the face I put on when I'm 'at home' and can be my true self. (I'm also often very aware of the thing where I am simultaneously out and passing--I tend not to be open about being ace, for example, in my professional life but I am pretty open about being some flavor of queer. This is partly because I'm obvious enough if you know what you're looking for--and most queer people do--that I own a shirt saying "ASEXUALITY: CONFUSING THE FUCK OUT OF YOUR GAYDAR." It was so emblematic of my high school and college experiences that I bought it the moment it became available. I have had quite enough of people coming up to me, leaning in, and telling me that I can tell them anything I want, they're sure to be understanding. Yeah, sure you will.)

Anyway, like--I tuck a lot of myself away until I can be sure it's safe, and I wonder if that isn't part of it. There are so few places to be just present-and-queer without having to have some kind of reason for being yourself, either sexual or political as you say, and like--I dunno. There is so much pushback from straight/cis people, I can see why someone who doesn't have access to anything else would lean very heavily on the sex-or-politics reasons for connecting to other people, and then that comes across as being one-dimensional.

At some point I'm going to write up my theory of detoxing to explain the phenomenon I often observe where people who have been prevented from expressing a part of how they feel about something run into other people who agree and immediately overcorrect enthusiastically in the opposite direction entirely. I think it's a normal part of recalibrating and integrating yourself, but it can definitely be confusing and upsetting if you don't understand the trauma that the person is processing and reacting to--especially if you happen to have the opposite sort of trauma yourself.

I lucked into online life

[jesse_the_k]

...via my local SF con.

https://wiscon.net

Which is a very queer space indeed. I'm with you on noise and drinks--our local library offers free rooms for public events run by individuals, and that's worked for some things.

*waves* at lovepeaceohana

[lazaefair]

At some point I'm going to write up my theory of detoxing to explain the phenomenon I often observe where people who have been prevented from expressing a part of how they feel about something run into other people who agree and immediately overcorrect enthusiastically in the opposite direction entirely.

Oh, I have no doubt that accounts for a lot of what I've seen. And it often shades into an almost spiteful "fuck you" defiance. Which I totally understand because I've felt that impulse myself for various aspects of my identity, but it's not great when I'm on the receiving end because they've assumed I'm straight. Doubly not great when it's a rich, cis gay white man who acts like he has the absolute last word on oppression because he's gay. >_>

Anyway, like--I tuck a lot of myself away until I can be sure it's safe, and I wonder if that isn't part of it.

Same. But also, I've increasingly found that I'm more likely to be friends with someone based on personality, thought patterns, conversational styles, intelligence level, etc. rather than a demographic identity or a shared interest. I can't force a connection with a boring or incompatible person just because they're queer (or Asian, or a nerd, or...)

On top of that, rather than feeling free to be myself, sometimes I feel like there's this pressure in Queer-With-A-Capital-Q spaces to perform a certain level of queerness that's more than what I want to do or that would be authentic for myself. Which just compounds the sense of being an impostor.

[wellthisisnice]

Oh my, just the other day i said in a comment on PF that i'm sure some of my school classmates thought i'm some flavor of queer because "i've always been queer coded" xP

And now i really want to read your theory of detoxing in relation to queerness and trauma. Hope you have to time to get to it!

[sciatrix]

I've been claiming I'm "just about to write it up" for like six years now. Oops.

[wellthisisnice]

Mood.